Estatua e disturbios en Tallinn

Aqui tedes toda a cadena que desencadenou (valga a redundancia) o comentario no foro dos estudiantes internacionales..
Ahí tiven que mediar eu.. que se non .. heheheh.. a verdade é que me estaban a tocar os c... con tantos mails... asi que decidin responder...
Tamen podedes ver como incriblemente a coordinadora erasmus tomou parte e dunha maneira menos parcial do que eu me esperaba.. sorprendeume bastante.. (ela é Riin)
E por suposto o último comentario .. o mellor... Christoph grande! (a Christoph podedelo ver nunha das fotos do post do tram party conmigo..)
Aqui vai a sucesión de respostas.. incrible que esto pase..
E de qué nos intentan convencer ós internacionales!?!?
Para qué coño se meten a discutir todo esto no foro dos erasmus?

Dear All!

Please be informed that you got one ONE-side version, which is proposed here to people via newpapers and TV and ! There is also a REAL history...

Study well;)

Catherine

Hi!

Just my personal opinion. This letter does not seem neutral. There are facts, that are not trustworthy.

Russian native speaking person.
Viktoria

Hi!

This is quite nice historical fairy tale.

If you would like to know history, read historical books =)

Have a nice day,

Vladimir

It seems that Estonians and Russians have different history.. We would be very interested to hear about „your” history.. I personally don’t know any other.

Good job Ivo!

Riin

Hmm,

Well, I think that Ivo explained his view.

So why dont you bring out and disprove the facts that are wrong in your opinion.

I am more than curious to hear them.

To Vladimir:

Which historical books have you read?

Kaisa
Native estonian speaker

I forgot smth.

Ivo explained his view and the view of majority living in this country- Estonia!

Kaisa

Dear All!

Firstly, In my opinion that was only ONE-Side view information

Secondly, I think this kind of the provocative things should not take place in the university as TUT!

Jekaterina

Origin Russian from Estonia

Kaisa,

1. If it is Ivo's view why do you protect it so much?

2. especially for you - this is not very nice to make sarcasm here!

Catherine

Origin Russian from Estonia

Hello.

I am Teemu from Finland, so im an outsider. And to me Ivo's
briefing makes sense.

My personal opinion is that bodies of dead soldiers should be located
to graveyard. Not to the city centre. That's the practise in all civilized
countries.

Somehow Vladimirs quote "nice little fairy tale" reminds me of Russias way
to deal with things; ignoring facts and not giving any proofs to their own
opinion.
If Ivo's story isn't accurate, could you please point out the facts that
don't make
sense, instead of labelling it all as bullshit.

Your message which has two sentencies doens't make any sense to me.

I was in riots and no one over there gave a fuck about the statue, they
wanted to break things and get some free alcohol from shops. Most of
the people were underaged brats in drunk. And I know that the police
did had to use the force against the people. All the calm approaches of
police were stoned. There weren't any options left.

Teemu
-drunken finnish bystander

I'm outsider too.

You said Ivo's briefling makes sense.. well, maybe it does, but we are not
discussing about that here, We are just saying that it is not a "neutral
overview" as himself claims since it very clearly contains subjective and
personal opinions which, for some of you may or may not make sense. All in
all, that was HIS opinion, which I respect (don't share though) but it was
not objective at all.

Appart from that, I don't see why it is absolutely necessary to send a
personal opinion to all Students, what was the intention of the email? Was
it to make people believe an opinion hidden within a couple of real facts?
Why don't you then propose a debate instead of calling the shots?

Fernando

I'm the same meaning with Victoria...

You was trying to make this letter neutral, but it was fully on the side of estonians...

I don't have anythig against estonian people, if they are good to me, however as russian i felt a descriminaton to me through all my life.

And besides, this letter is not realy true, there are some facts that are not trustworthy.

Sincerily
Anna

Diego Fernandez :

I'm a foreign student also.
I really think that this forum of international students is not the place for discussing this matter.
It has been always a forum for informing about incoming events, trips, visits, etc.
If people really want to discuss this situation, so you should organize a meeting or a discussion forum, but it's enough with all these mails.
I have also my own opinion, but i don't want to argue, at least here.

Thanks.
Diego.

What i would like to say also, is that this monument was erected just streight after the 2nd WW, and it was on the same place for 60 years, and everything was ok. Both estonians and russian came to the monument to rever the memory to a soldier-liberator, the soldier that released Estonia from fascism.

But unfortunately because of the events of the last year when the place of a monument has been used for promotion of the Soviet mode and the insult of independence of Estonia. For a part of the population this monument became a symbol of occupation!

And besides, vandals were also both russians and estonians! And of course, not any sane person will be for them.

Anna.

I have no idea who Anna is, but she sent one of the most reasonable
mails to this list about this subject. Well done!

I find this subject really interesting, but i see no added value to
send a mail about it to all international students..

As a side note, as an outsider living in Estonia i find it appalling
that i could get more information about this matter on BBC or Euronews
(BBC had LIVE images of the events) than on ETV or any other Estonian
TV channel... You should question your media more than you do...

Other than that, i appreciate the idea of discussing this in a true
forum, orgnaised for this event, neutral and with opinions form both
sides. I for one volunteer to moderate it.

Cheers
Joao

Dear all,

I agree that the neutrality of the original email is very questionable and also think no one here is without a bias - including myself, born in Moscow and having lived in the US for half of my life.

I also support that a forum be organized for a moderated discussion - I ask that the moderators of this email group help organize this ASAP - maybe a joined discussion between TTU and Tallinn University.

AND although this chain of emails is not the best places for the current discussion THIS SHOULD BE DISCUSSED AMONG UNIVERSITY STUDENTS - students have and should continue to play a crucial role in addressing political, historic, social, and cultural topics..... especially in times of crisis....

The dominant role played by youth in the events of the past week has highlighted a tragic situation. There has been much hope that the tensions between the Russian speaking and Estonian speaking population will subside with the exact generation that committed the majority of the acts of the past week.

Please inform me of the forum, discussion - I will gladly participate. I was physically present during the demonstration at the monument the first night, during the riots/looting, during the violence that took place on Thursday and Friday night and will be glad to share my view and even photos.

Sincerely,
Pavel

could you please all stop spamming arround with this fuck?! get yourself some http-base blog forum or whatever to discuss that shit!

Christoph.

Historias sobre a estatua

Este documento acabanmo de enviar unhas cantas personas fai 5 minutos... explica breve e claramente o qué e porqué da situación aqui, espero que non teñades moitas dificultades co inglés:

Russia is igniting internal conflicts in neighbouring Estonia

This has happened never before in Estonia, small peaceful country in Northern Europe, member of NATO and EU since 2004.

A Bronze Soldier, the statue in Soviet Red Army uniform standing until last Friday on small green square in centre of capital Tallinn, was for Estonians the symbol of harsh Soviet occupations from 1940 - 1941 and 1944 to 1991. Ten's of thousand people were deported without court decision to Siberia or killed in Soviet state-terror during that regime as a part of ethnic cleansing.

But part of the Russian community, migrated here within same Soviet occupation in search of better and European-style life, is following cold-war time Soviet history concept. For them these events and statue meant memorial of "liberation" of Baltic states Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, as well as whole Europe in WW II.

Nazi equals Soviet

The problem is that Baltic states, but also Poland have suffered both from Nazi-Germany and Soviet occupations in WW II. And defeating the Nazi-Germany did not mean that Baltic countries were liberated, but that German occupation was changed by other, Soviet occupation, which in some cases was even worse.

Therefore Bronze Soldier was a symbol of Soviet empire and simply could not been tolerated any longer in centre of capital of EU and NATO member country. Especially because within last years it was increasingly used by Putin propaganda-machine as a Russian symbol to generate tension in Estonia between whole society and less integrated smaller part of Russian community.

So it was inevitable to relocate it from Tallinn city centre, leaving still chance for those, who have different opininons, chance to visit the statue on military cemetery in Talllinn, where also the remains of dozen Soviet soldiers will be reburied.

Heavy violent propaganda and co-ordination from Russia

Government planned to relocate the statue last week in peaceful manner with holy memorial ceremony. But about thousand people, demanding not to touch the monument at all as it was symbol of Russian power, started to attack police and throw the stones. This confrontation, co-ordinated by Russian embassy in Tallinn and turned on heavily by numerous Russian TV-channels frequent and unbalanced emotional reports, widespread quickly and turned into street violence, vandalism and shop raiding, never taken place in Tallinn before. Almost everybody and everything, not being Russian origin, was labeled to be "fascist". Also, the windows of Estonian National Opera and main square located St.John's Church were stoned.

Shouting "Russia! Russia!", the shopraiders were stealing the alcohol, premium brand clothes (Hugo Boss, Giorgio Armani, Gucci shops were raided). About hundred shops were raided and stoned, dozens of cars beaten. As a result, almost 1000 people were arrested in three days, amongst them number of experienced criminals with long track record.

Considering the situation, the Bronze Soldier statue was relocated on Friday morning and is standing now on Defence Forces cemetery where it's accessible to everyone.

But this has not stopped the propaganda war from Moscow.

Massive hostile media campaign from Russia against Estonia has now reached advanced stage, accusing Estonia in re-evaluation of WW II results, of course not speaking a single word about Soviet-run mass crimes, killings and deportations in Baltic States during Soviet occupation. Also, shop robbers are shown in Russian TV as "fighters for our memory and against fascism" and Estonian government and police are accused by Russian TV as "state repressive organs, humiliating rights of Russians". It's No. 1 news topic in all Russian TV channels already for three days.

The fact, that statue of Broze Soldier has been removed and erected already in new place (Defence Forces Cemetery) where everyone can visit it, has not changed the attitude.

Hysteric reactions from Russia

Russian Parliament has demanded to place the statue back to where it was before, also that Estonian Government has to step down. Needless to say, this is clear interferrence to Estonian internal affairs by all means.

The Russian state accusitions by now (Tuesday, Wednesday) have become absolutely hysterical and expressing complete lies. The member of Russian Parliament, Gosduma, Mr. Kovaljev accused after seeing the monument yesterday on it's new location, that "statue has been sawd and holy memory disgraced". According to workers, giving an interview in Estonian TV, nothing such has happened as statue was relocated in one unit and as soon as possible.

Also, massive scam and internet attacks against Estonian state authorities websites and media channels IT-systems have been started from Russia. "It's identified now that in some cases IP-addresses are related directly to Kremlin-run organisations and structures related presidential authorities of Russia," said Urmas Paet, Minister of Foreign Affairs of Estonia, yesterday on press conference. Also, it's proven that many people confronting police forces before events went violent, were paid by Embassy-run orgnisers a 80 EEK (appr. EUR 5) per hour.

Estonian embassy in Moscow is on under heavy 24h protest waves, psychoterror and attacks of Kremlin-supported youth organisation "Nashi", getting minimal formal defence from Russian Militia. Estoninan ammbassador Mrs. Marina Kaljurand was attacked physically today (Wed, May 2) while trying to give a press conference. "Nashi" even declared, that demolition of Estonian embassy in Moscow will start on June 12!

Vladimir Zhirinovskyi, Vice Chairman of Russian Parliament said yesterday: "Russia should organise major military campain next to border with Estonia. And some troops may be mistakingly happen to be in Estonia and demolishing many cultural and historic sites. After which we will apologize, of course."

It's important to note that despite all of this most of the people in Estonia are still calm and there are no cases of violence from Estonian community. The importance of situation is illustrated by fact that almost 2000 people by now in Estonia have applied to become a member of Police Support Organisation to protect the country from internal conflicts, co-ordinated from abroad.

Soviet monuments not relocated, but demolished in Russia

As a curiosity, Russian overreaction is hypocratic because on very same time, WW II monuments for Russian soldiers are demolished (not replaced) in Russia itself.

It has happened in Moscow satellite city Himki a few weeks ago, also in Stavropol in southern region on last autumn.

So all in all - it's symbolic war against Europe and another clear evidence of former KGB agent Putin tactics to show the world that Russia has not changed and need to show a power.

We hope that all people reading this information will make their move on their home countries by demanding Russia stopping interferring immediately to Estonian /EU internal affairs. Also passing this info to as many people and media channels as you can, because Russian (population 150m people) TV propaganda is exceeding Estonian (1,3m people) explanations.

Tram Party

Deixemos os conflictos por un lado a ver como se soluciona todo esto...
Ahora deixovos fotos (si, que xa sei que é o que máis vos gusta.... ) da última festa que tivemos..
Foi xusto o día anterior a todo o lío que se formou.
A festa chamabase "Tram Party", e como supoñedes... é un tranvía que nos deu unha volta por toda a cidade pero dentro era case tipo discoteca.. sen asientos e con espacio suficiente para estar de pé esas 3 horas mais ou menos...

Gaultier... o máis tolo dos franceses!

Manu, un dos antigos erasmus que veu para facer unha visita e recordar vellos tempos... él foise dunha maneira un pouco... uff .. mala de Estonia...
rompera o brazo o dia anterior a coller o avión..

Logo de moita birra.. é o que ten...

montandoa no tram

Barbara, Boris, Angel (antigo erasmus tamén), e Mara, a miña flatmate








Logo do Tram Party, entramos nunha disco para unha festa de erasmus.. realmente eu non teño moito que contar... xa vos podedes imaxinar que ahí xa aparquei nunha esquina.. e como moito a falar con algun..


Cristian e o seu irmán, que veu tomar unhas vacacións polo norte cos pais

A historia da estatua rusa en Tallinn

Fai alguns dias estiven tomando algo neste pub... ou no que queda de el...
Está xusto ó lado do Rockstars, un pub de metal e concertos, que está baixo terra.. asi que espero que se salvara algo dos tuzaros estes


Esta é unha tenda á que solía ir a menudo con Eddie a coller algunha birra...
..
As calles que vades ver por estes videos son o puro centro... as calles polas que normalmente estou camiñando e incluso a parada de bus na que me suelo baixar...
Agora mesmo acabo de falar con Eddie, o meu colega local, e dime que posiblemente esto desencadee unha guerra civil.. ou algo asi..
Mi ma.. xa me chegaban con experiencias extrañas.. pero esto xa sobrepasa as miñas expectativas


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlnReKEicMY&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksg8DV1qpLs&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aAM3ciyc5A&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDd6VX3Vpno&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi71BWBW_ts&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMcNtyYuIMg&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rlo7LkKWp8c&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3jsJh5FzPM&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaxULSIYYcE&mode=related&search=

EFE
27-04-2007

MOSCÚ.- Centenares de jóvenes de origen ruso protagonizaron la pasada noche nuevos desordenes y actos de vandalismo en la capital de Estonia, Tallin. La policía dio cuenta de 60 heridos y unos 200 detenidos entre los manifestantes, que protestaban contra el desmantelamiento de un monumento a los soldados soviéticos caídos en la Segunda Guerra Mundial, según la agencia Interfax.

Por segunda noche consecutiva, la multitud enfurecida rompió cristales, saqueó tiendas, volcó coches y causó numerosos daños en el centro de la ciudad, donde el Gobierno concentró numerosos dispositivos policiales.

En varias ocasiones, la policía empleó vehículos con cañones de agua y gases lacrimógenos contra los manifestantes, que arrojaban piedras a los agentes y también protagonizaron varias peleas con grupos nacionalistas estonios.

El primer ministro estonio, Andrus Ansip, denunció anoche, en una intervención televisiva, los actos de vandalismo, amenazó con castigos a los culpables y pidió calma a la población.

Por su parte, el alcalde de Tallin, Savisaar, quien se había opuesto al desmantelamiento del monumento, exigió al Gobierno de Ansip compensaciones monetarias por los daños casados por la multitud a la ciudad, por un monto de hasta cuatro millones de dólares.

El diario estonio 'Eesti Paevaleht' afirmó anoche en su página digital que se ha reforzado la vigilancia del jefe de Estado, el primer ministro y el presidente del Parlamento, debido a los incidentes registrados y algunas amenazas de asesinato recibidas.

Entre tanto, las páginas oficiales en Internet del Ejecutivo estonio y del gobernante Partido de las Reformas de Ansip se vieron paralizadas por ataques de piratas informáticos desde el exterior, presuntamente desde Rusia.

Rusia amenaza con sanciones

El Gobierno ruso calificó de "sacrílego e inhumano" el desmontaje del monumento y amenazó con sanciones económicas al vecino país báltico, mientras el Senado instó al presidente ruso, Vladimir Putin, a romper las relaciones diplomáticas con Estonia.

La mayoría de la población autóctona estonia (67,9%) apoya su retirada, ya que considera que el Ejército soviético fue una fuerza de ocupación. A favor de mantenerlo se manifiestan los de origen eslavo, que suponen el 31,2% de la población de Estonia.

El monumento de la discordia, 'El Soldado de Bronce', se encontraba en la céntrica ladera de Tinismiagui, donde yacen los restos de al menos 13 militares soviéticos muertos en territorio estonio en combates contra las tropas nazis en septiembre de 1944.

Las autoridades estonias se proponían iniciar el viernes las obras para exhumar los restos de esos soldados con el fin de trasladarlos a un cementerio militar y retirar después la escultura, pero ante las protestas optaron por hacerlo en la noche del jueves.

Los cuerpos sepultados en Tinismiagui pueden ser exhumados en virtud de una ley que establece que los restos de soldados muertos en combate en Estonia deben ser enterrados en cementerios.

A historia da estatua rusa en Tallinn

Para que vexades que esto non é unha broma:
Videos:
Riot Tallinn 01
Riot Tallinn 02
Riot Tallinn 03
Riot Tallinn 04

O caos en Tallinn

Bueno, estos dias en Estonia están a ser un serio caos.
Non sei se tedes noticias en España do que está a suceder aqui... pero está nun nivel certamente alarmante.
A historia comenza por culpa dunha estatua dun soldado ruso (a foto de arriba foi tomada fai 3 dias) que está case no centro. Esa estatua simboliza a victoria de Rusia sobre os alemanes.. e o que os rusos creen que foi a "liberación de Estonia" gracias a eles. Bueno.. resulta que ahora os estonianos queren quitar a estatua porque din que non pinta nada (esto recordame algo ó caso ese da estatua de Franco, non?)... E parece ser que a maioria da población está de acordo en trasladala para Rusia.. porque pensan que ese é o sitio ó que pertence.
Logo de esto... estes dias estase a celebrar o aniversario de dita victoria rusa... e moitos rusos tolos empezaron a facer manifestación estilo bruto... é dicir.. rompendo todos TODOS os escaparates de restaurantes e tendas... coches... pegando a xente que se atopan pola rúa, sexan estonianos ou extranxeiros... etc etc.. Un amigo dixome que hai unha calle enteira totalmente destrozada.
A venta de alcohol foi prohibida a partir das 2 da tarde... e en consecuencia a xente está a roubar dos restaurantes e tendas todo o que poden.. a poder ser alcohol.. e outra xente uneuse aproveitando a situación para roubar tamén..
Os sitios onde normalmente iamos a tomar cañas estame decindo ahora o rapaz, está totalmente destrozado, un pub de rock...
Non sei cánto durará esto pero a xente dime que ata o 2 de maio pode que non pare..
Incluso recibín un mail da universidade aconsellandonos evitar ir polo centro... e preferiblemente pola noite...
A ver en qué da esto...

Poker, TV, birras e cintas de video

Non sei se o falei algo no blog, pero creo que algun de vos xa soubestes que participei nun corto da universidade de filmatografía de Tallinn. E este era o segundo! Pero o meu papel no primeiro.. digamos que era mais de figurante..
Neste xa fun o papel principal! hehe.... que tema Antonio Banderas que vou ascendendo! XDD
A verdade é que moita xente me pregunta pola historia.. pero creo que non debía de ser demasiado importante... supoño que será un proyecto no que o que conta máis será os encuadres, sombras, planos e demais...
Pois bueno.. acabanme de enviar as fotos o outro dia ainda que o fixemos fai como 2 meses. E parece que ainda tampouco está rematado de todo..
Bueno.. nas fotos vadesme ver con mala cara... tanto por que me fixeron despertarme ás 6:30 da mañá... a hora á que me suelo durmir XDDD... coma porque se supón que tiña que salir no corto de resaka... asi que pola mañá ducheime e funme.. e vai a directora e dime: "¡¡¡como!!! duchácheste!! e tas todo limpio e co pelo tamen limpiño e liso!!! qué fixeches!! alomenos non te afeitaches!"
E logo puxome a man na cabeza e empezoume a alborotar o pelo... pero coa goma posta... asi que vin a mitad dos meus pelos nas suas mans....
Logo puxeronme unha capa de maquillaje que pa sacalo... bueno.. compadezovos tias! hehe
Xa tou vendo que hai por ahi unha foto que me vades decir algo... pois vai haber que aclaralo...
Sí! si toquei e agarrei a pernera e incluso cheguei a bicar á susodicha... porque o exigiu a directora, eso si... pero na toma final eliminaron o do bico e solamente rozo os labios no lateral do seus .. hehe...
Veña ahi van!











Bueno, aqui vai outra entrada mais...
Estes 2 que estan xunto a min son Eddie (o rubio) e Viggo.
Eddie vai ser un dos que vai vir conmigo a Alfoz e xa teredes ocasión de ver as súas habilidades bebendo birra XDDD
A Viggo conocino non fai moito... un día quedei con Eddie e el estaba alí. Eddie invitouno porque decía que en Metalstorm sempre deixaba posts un cacho tristes e decidiu invitalo un dia a tomar algo con nos. O certo é que é un tío un cacho triste... de feito defínese como Emo, ainda que non teña pinta ningunha. Ademáis é un tipo un cacho raro... xa que aparte de emo.. gustalle o black e viking metal e é católico practicante! Vaia mezcla!
Bueno... polo menos desde que nos conoceu a nolos 2 parece un pouco menos... triste...

Que mais...
Fai uns dias salin na tele estona!
Nun talk-show.. algo asi como un diario de Patricia.
Pero de talk para min nada! A presentadora... que parece ser que é moi famosa en Estonia (logo vina nalgunha revista tipo corazon que iba lendo alguen no trolley) dixome... "non falas estonio eh?? hmmm pois hoxe non teño ganas de falar inglés"
Asi que o unico que fixen foi poñer a miña cara.. hehe
O meu compañeiro Petri falou por min... resulta que se trata aqui da semana do estudiante, asi que era un programa que trataba sobre os universitarios. E entre eles decidiron coller a un internacional estudiando na universidade de Tallinn.. e chamaronme a min..
É unha pena.. coa de cousas que podia contar eu.. e mostrar alguns videos dos A-Teams no hostel ou das destroyer parties eeheheheh
Parece que sale o dia 1 de mayo.. terei que contactar con alguen local que me poida grabar pola tele heeh
Ata ahora eso foi todo.
Non hai moitas fotos porque non hai tampouco moitas festas ultimamente... e o ambiente é bastante diferente ó do 1º semestre.. pouco compañeirismo e xente un pouco mais á sua bola.. realmente o primeiro semestre foi a bomba.. este.. estoume a sentir case coma estudiando en España.. porque teño montonazo de traballo e porque xa prácticamente non salgo de marcha... ainda que como vedes as cousas extrañas a min non me acaban nunca hehe
Como broche.. outra cousa que non creo que moitos fixeran.. nin erasmus aqui nin xente en general.. ontes estiven xogando ó poker ata as 5 da noite con 5 estonos... 3 ou 4 deles skins...
Alguén da mais?