Estatua e disturbios en Tallinn

Aqui tedes toda a cadena que desencadenou (valga a redundancia) o comentario no foro dos estudiantes internacionales..
Ahí tiven que mediar eu.. que se non .. heheheh.. a verdade é que me estaban a tocar os c... con tantos mails... asi que decidin responder...
Tamen podedes ver como incriblemente a coordinadora erasmus tomou parte e dunha maneira menos parcial do que eu me esperaba.. sorprendeume bastante.. (ela é Riin)
E por suposto o último comentario .. o mellor... Christoph grande! (a Christoph podedelo ver nunha das fotos do post do tram party conmigo..)
Aqui vai a sucesión de respostas.. incrible que esto pase..
E de qué nos intentan convencer ós internacionales!?!?
Para qué coño se meten a discutir todo esto no foro dos erasmus?

Dear All!

Please be informed that you got one ONE-side version, which is proposed here to people via newpapers and TV and ! There is also a REAL history...

Study well;)

Catherine

Hi!

Just my personal opinion. This letter does not seem neutral. There are facts, that are not trustworthy.

Russian native speaking person.
Viktoria

Hi!

This is quite nice historical fairy tale.

If you would like to know history, read historical books =)

Have a nice day,

Vladimir

It seems that Estonians and Russians have different history.. We would be very interested to hear about „your” history.. I personally don’t know any other.

Good job Ivo!

Riin

Hmm,

Well, I think that Ivo explained his view.

So why dont you bring out and disprove the facts that are wrong in your opinion.

I am more than curious to hear them.

To Vladimir:

Which historical books have you read?

Kaisa
Native estonian speaker

I forgot smth.

Ivo explained his view and the view of majority living in this country- Estonia!

Kaisa

Dear All!

Firstly, In my opinion that was only ONE-Side view information

Secondly, I think this kind of the provocative things should not take place in the university as TUT!

Jekaterina

Origin Russian from Estonia

Kaisa,

1. If it is Ivo's view why do you protect it so much?

2. especially for you - this is not very nice to make sarcasm here!

Catherine

Origin Russian from Estonia

Hello.

I am Teemu from Finland, so im an outsider. And to me Ivo's
briefing makes sense.

My personal opinion is that bodies of dead soldiers should be located
to graveyard. Not to the city centre. That's the practise in all civilized
countries.

Somehow Vladimirs quote "nice little fairy tale" reminds me of Russias way
to deal with things; ignoring facts and not giving any proofs to their own
opinion.
If Ivo's story isn't accurate, could you please point out the facts that
don't make
sense, instead of labelling it all as bullshit.

Your message which has two sentencies doens't make any sense to me.

I was in riots and no one over there gave a fuck about the statue, they
wanted to break things and get some free alcohol from shops. Most of
the people were underaged brats in drunk. And I know that the police
did had to use the force against the people. All the calm approaches of
police were stoned. There weren't any options left.

Teemu
-drunken finnish bystander

I'm outsider too.

You said Ivo's briefling makes sense.. well, maybe it does, but we are not
discussing about that here, We are just saying that it is not a "neutral
overview" as himself claims since it very clearly contains subjective and
personal opinions which, for some of you may or may not make sense. All in
all, that was HIS opinion, which I respect (don't share though) but it was
not objective at all.

Appart from that, I don't see why it is absolutely necessary to send a
personal opinion to all Students, what was the intention of the email? Was
it to make people believe an opinion hidden within a couple of real facts?
Why don't you then propose a debate instead of calling the shots?

Fernando

I'm the same meaning with Victoria...

You was trying to make this letter neutral, but it was fully on the side of estonians...

I don't have anythig against estonian people, if they are good to me, however as russian i felt a descriminaton to me through all my life.

And besides, this letter is not realy true, there are some facts that are not trustworthy.

Sincerily
Anna

Diego Fernandez :

I'm a foreign student also.
I really think that this forum of international students is not the place for discussing this matter.
It has been always a forum for informing about incoming events, trips, visits, etc.
If people really want to discuss this situation, so you should organize a meeting or a discussion forum, but it's enough with all these mails.
I have also my own opinion, but i don't want to argue, at least here.

Thanks.
Diego.

What i would like to say also, is that this monument was erected just streight after the 2nd WW, and it was on the same place for 60 years, and everything was ok. Both estonians and russian came to the monument to rever the memory to a soldier-liberator, the soldier that released Estonia from fascism.

But unfortunately because of the events of the last year when the place of a monument has been used for promotion of the Soviet mode and the insult of independence of Estonia. For a part of the population this monument became a symbol of occupation!

And besides, vandals were also both russians and estonians! And of course, not any sane person will be for them.

Anna.

I have no idea who Anna is, but she sent one of the most reasonable
mails to this list about this subject. Well done!

I find this subject really interesting, but i see no added value to
send a mail about it to all international students..

As a side note, as an outsider living in Estonia i find it appalling
that i could get more information about this matter on BBC or Euronews
(BBC had LIVE images of the events) than on ETV or any other Estonian
TV channel... You should question your media more than you do...

Other than that, i appreciate the idea of discussing this in a true
forum, orgnaised for this event, neutral and with opinions form both
sides. I for one volunteer to moderate it.

Cheers
Joao

Dear all,

I agree that the neutrality of the original email is very questionable and also think no one here is without a bias - including myself, born in Moscow and having lived in the US for half of my life.

I also support that a forum be organized for a moderated discussion - I ask that the moderators of this email group help organize this ASAP - maybe a joined discussion between TTU and Tallinn University.

AND although this chain of emails is not the best places for the current discussion THIS SHOULD BE DISCUSSED AMONG UNIVERSITY STUDENTS - students have and should continue to play a crucial role in addressing political, historic, social, and cultural topics..... especially in times of crisis....

The dominant role played by youth in the events of the past week has highlighted a tragic situation. There has been much hope that the tensions between the Russian speaking and Estonian speaking population will subside with the exact generation that committed the majority of the acts of the past week.

Please inform me of the forum, discussion - I will gladly participate. I was physically present during the demonstration at the monument the first night, during the riots/looting, during the violence that took place on Thursday and Friday night and will be glad to share my view and even photos.

Sincerely,
Pavel

could you please all stop spamming arround with this fuck?! get yourself some http-base blog forum or whatever to discuss that shit!

Christoph.

Historias sobre a estatua

Este documento acabanmo de enviar unhas cantas personas fai 5 minutos... explica breve e claramente o qué e porqué da situación aqui, espero que non teñades moitas dificultades co inglés:

Russia is igniting internal conflicts in neighbouring Estonia

This has happened never before in Estonia, small peaceful country in Northern Europe, member of NATO and EU since 2004.

A Bronze Soldier, the statue in Soviet Red Army uniform standing until last Friday on small green square in centre of capital Tallinn, was for Estonians the symbol of harsh Soviet occupations from 1940 - 1941 and 1944 to 1991. Ten's of thousand people were deported without court decision to Siberia or killed in Soviet state-terror during that regime as a part of ethnic cleansing.

But part of the Russian community, migrated here within same Soviet occupation in search of better and European-style life, is following cold-war time Soviet history concept. For them these events and statue meant memorial of "liberation" of Baltic states Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, as well as whole Europe in WW II.

Nazi equals Soviet

The problem is that Baltic states, but also Poland have suffered both from Nazi-Germany and Soviet occupations in WW II. And defeating the Nazi-Germany did not mean that Baltic countries were liberated, but that German occupation was changed by other, Soviet occupation, which in some cases was even worse.

Therefore Bronze Soldier was a symbol of Soviet empire and simply could not been tolerated any longer in centre of capital of EU and NATO member country. Especially because within last years it was increasingly used by Putin propaganda-machine as a Russian symbol to generate tension in Estonia between whole society and less integrated smaller part of Russian community.

So it was inevitable to relocate it from Tallinn city centre, leaving still chance for those, who have different opininons, chance to visit the statue on military cemetery in Talllinn, where also the remains of dozen Soviet soldiers will be reburied.

Heavy violent propaganda and co-ordination from Russia

Government planned to relocate the statue last week in peaceful manner with holy memorial ceremony. But about thousand people, demanding not to touch the monument at all as it was symbol of Russian power, started to attack police and throw the stones. This confrontation, co-ordinated by Russian embassy in Tallinn and turned on heavily by numerous Russian TV-channels frequent and unbalanced emotional reports, widespread quickly and turned into street violence, vandalism and shop raiding, never taken place in Tallinn before. Almost everybody and everything, not being Russian origin, was labeled to be "fascist". Also, the windows of Estonian National Opera and main square located St.John's Church were stoned.

Shouting "Russia! Russia!", the shopraiders were stealing the alcohol, premium brand clothes (Hugo Boss, Giorgio Armani, Gucci shops were raided). About hundred shops were raided and stoned, dozens of cars beaten. As a result, almost 1000 people were arrested in three days, amongst them number of experienced criminals with long track record.

Considering the situation, the Bronze Soldier statue was relocated on Friday morning and is standing now on Defence Forces cemetery where it's accessible to everyone.

But this has not stopped the propaganda war from Moscow.

Massive hostile media campaign from Russia against Estonia has now reached advanced stage, accusing Estonia in re-evaluation of WW II results, of course not speaking a single word about Soviet-run mass crimes, killings and deportations in Baltic States during Soviet occupation. Also, shop robbers are shown in Russian TV as "fighters for our memory and against fascism" and Estonian government and police are accused by Russian TV as "state repressive organs, humiliating rights of Russians". It's No. 1 news topic in all Russian TV channels already for three days.

The fact, that statue of Broze Soldier has been removed and erected already in new place (Defence Forces Cemetery) where everyone can visit it, has not changed the attitude.

Hysteric reactions from Russia

Russian Parliament has demanded to place the statue back to where it was before, also that Estonian Government has to step down. Needless to say, this is clear interferrence to Estonian internal affairs by all means.

The Russian state accusitions by now (Tuesday, Wednesday) have become absolutely hysterical and expressing complete lies. The member of Russian Parliament, Gosduma, Mr. Kovaljev accused after seeing the monument yesterday on it's new location, that "statue has been sawd and holy memory disgraced". According to workers, giving an interview in Estonian TV, nothing such has happened as statue was relocated in one unit and as soon as possible.

Also, massive scam and internet attacks against Estonian state authorities websites and media channels IT-systems have been started from Russia. "It's identified now that in some cases IP-addresses are related directly to Kremlin-run organisations and structures related presidential authorities of Russia," said Urmas Paet, Minister of Foreign Affairs of Estonia, yesterday on press conference. Also, it's proven that many people confronting police forces before events went violent, were paid by Embassy-run orgnisers a 80 EEK (appr. EUR 5) per hour.

Estonian embassy in Moscow is on under heavy 24h protest waves, psychoterror and attacks of Kremlin-supported youth organisation "Nashi", getting minimal formal defence from Russian Militia. Estoninan ammbassador Mrs. Marina Kaljurand was attacked physically today (Wed, May 2) while trying to give a press conference. "Nashi" even declared, that demolition of Estonian embassy in Moscow will start on June 12!

Vladimir Zhirinovskyi, Vice Chairman of Russian Parliament said yesterday: "Russia should organise major military campain next to border with Estonia. And some troops may be mistakingly happen to be in Estonia and demolishing many cultural and historic sites. After which we will apologize, of course."

It's important to note that despite all of this most of the people in Estonia are still calm and there are no cases of violence from Estonian community. The importance of situation is illustrated by fact that almost 2000 people by now in Estonia have applied to become a member of Police Support Organisation to protect the country from internal conflicts, co-ordinated from abroad.

Soviet monuments not relocated, but demolished in Russia

As a curiosity, Russian overreaction is hypocratic because on very same time, WW II monuments for Russian soldiers are demolished (not replaced) in Russia itself.

It has happened in Moscow satellite city Himki a few weeks ago, also in Stavropol in southern region on last autumn.

So all in all - it's symbolic war against Europe and another clear evidence of former KGB agent Putin tactics to show the world that Russia has not changed and need to show a power.

We hope that all people reading this information will make their move on their home countries by demanding Russia stopping interferring immediately to Estonian /EU internal affairs. Also passing this info to as many people and media channels as you can, because Russian (population 150m people) TV propaganda is exceeding Estonian (1,3m people) explanations.